I KNEW it was coming!!
What?!?!? …you ask.
Maybe some of you have heard them already, but I just heard my first commercial on the radio that goes something like this (not exact by any means…waiting for it to come on again):
“Do you have one of those ‘hard to understand’ mortgages that gives you several options to pay at the end of each month? Are your payments increasing and you were not aware of it. These ‘option ARM’ mortgages are very complex and things might not have been explained to you properly. If you have one of these mortgages you could be eligible for compensation! If this sounds like you, then give us a call for a free consultation. We might be able to help you get all your money back! So call Uraviktom & Playaviktom…attorneys at law.”
I don’t guess I should hold my breath for ONE of the ‘get-rich-quick-in-a-no-money-down-real-estate-late-night-infomercial’ students to take personal responsibility for their ’sure-thing’ real estate transaction going south. Why do that when there are lawyers just waiting to paint you as a victim…and financially illiterate judges and juries just waiting to hand you ‘free money’.
Don’t get me wrong, there are some people that did get screwed, but many more knew EXACTLY what they were doing. And if they had made those ‘easy riches’ they sure as heck wouldn’t be getting a lawyer to make sure they ‘paid back’ the person who they ‘got rich off of’.
The unfolding of this real estate bubble is going to be nasty…and this is ONLY the beginning. Just don’t expect to hear that from any ‘professional organization’ in the industry.
Stay tuned…
SoCalMtgGuy
February 16th, 2007 07:37
I could see this comeing too. Now everyone is going to play stupid and say they didn’t know what they were signing.This is just ridiculous.These lawyers are so crooked it makes me want to puke.Talk about scum of the earth.No one wants to take responsibility for anything anymore.There are going to be huge class action lawsuits just like the tech bubble.I personally hope no one gets a dime back.they gambled and lost, too bad, get on with life.
February 16th, 2007 09:07
I totally agree with you most of these people knew exactly what they were doing and if they made money would be all smiles.
HOWEVER, this is actually the best thing that could happen, because honestly the blame here is with the lenders for loaning out the money to these people who shouldn’t have gotten a loan in the first place. So this will punish them hopefully and in so punishing will force them to do what they should have done all along, make sure when you lend money its to someone who should be getting a loan. If these lawsuits are even remotely succesfull they will force lending back to what it should, be and force home prices way down to were they should be. So yes i hate lawyers and suits like this but in this case they are necessary.
February 16th, 2007 09:50
Err…umm…Did anyone who invested in the tech bubble ever manage to get even ONE CENT back from brokerage firms or the bankrupt companies in which they invested?
Nobody’s seeing their money again. THAT’S the hardest pill to swallow.
February 16th, 2007 10:15
Homes have ceased to be simple family shelters and have now morphed into “investments”. These people who got screwed were greedy, totally aware of the gamble involved and should receive NO more help than a person who bought bad stocks and thereafter saw the value plummet. It’s OUTRAGEOUS to even suggest assisting these people.
My wife and I have discussed this and decided to leave this country forever if any local or fdederal government agency spends public money on helping these asswipes out, because it would mean that common sense is PERMANENTLY gone and we’re not gonna stay to subsidize STUPIDITY and GREED.
February 16th, 2007 10:43
Googly Goo said:
===========================================
Err…umm…Did anyone who invested in the tech bubble ever manage to get even ONE CENT back from brokerage firms or the bankrupt companies in which they invested?
===========================================
Yes. There were (and are) many, many class action lawsuits against both brokerage firms and large companies that shareholders during the time of the illegalities are part of or can become part of. If you owned shared in Enron, for example, you would have gotten paperwork for a class action lawsuit several years ago. There have also been similar lawsuits against other companies and even places like Merrill Lynch, which were caught giving preferential prices and trade times to their richest customers.
Granted, these lawsuits might have resulted in getting back pennies on the dollar for the shareholders, it’s still an example of getting SOMETHING back. And it’s also an example of how common these lawsuits are, and why it should be no surprise that there will be a glut of lawsuits against lenders over the next several years…
February 16th, 2007 11:56
Yep, the little investors got back pennies on the dollar but the lawyers made millions….
February 16th, 2007 12:47
My best friend worked for NASD ADR and then on the plaintiff side of that stuff. A stock investor with a broker at a big firm who did really bad stuff like churn the account w/o authority, do unauthorized option trades, etc. could get some of their money back.
But I sincerely doubt that many of these FB - option arm etc. cases will fly. They’re going to be in front of juries whose houses are also declining in value and those juries will be reading that the speculative activity of people like these plaintiffs caused the crash and burn. Doubt they’ll be too sympathetic.
February 16th, 2007 15:55
We’ve had those sort of commercials up here in Sacramento for a few weeks, along with an insane amount of “refinance out of your ARM to a fixed rate” commercials.
Question: what’s the implication of this on owners, potential buyers, prices, etc.?
February 16th, 2007 18:04
I think it is pretty obvious that the reason for the increase in housing prices is due to ‘creative financing’ and the ‘investment rush’ into real estate.
Now that the easy money is gone and it is about time to make REAL mortgage payments, people are ‘foreclosin for the hills’.
Lots of people won’t be able to refi. If they could have afforded these homes without all the crazy loans, then they would have already done so. Those people who got in early enough and have ‘equity’, had better hurry up. As fast as you can make 100k in 6 months….you can lose it as well.
The ‘refi your ARM to a fixed rate’ commercials crack me up. These same people were bombarding us for the last 3-5 years with ARM commercials.
All you have to look at is the amount of lenders going under, and the homebuilders that are re-stating numbers and taking big hits.
The speculative demand is about gone in most areas…and now there are going to be massive supply ‘over hangs’ in many areas.
I don’t see prices in the bubble areas doing anything but going down the next few years. Something big would have to happen to increase wages by the amount needed to keep the ‘masses’ solvent.
SoCalMtgGuy
February 16th, 2007 19:12
I’m thinking this lawsuit stuff only ever helps attorneys. We saw this when the RTC took over a couple decades ago. Deja vu, and it will affect Way more people today - The builders Used to have to take the risk. Today, they can sell their new houses & trap those living in (or “investing in”) phase 1 & 2, from 2005 & 2006. Because They can offer cash-back, pay your mtg for a year (or 3) Find you a tenant, manage your “investment” and all the rest…. Keeping the plates spinning for a bit longer before the massive crash. In the meantime, the builder stays afloat
Habitat doesn’t have to build Another house!
Doreen Campbell (Florida Appraiser)
February 17th, 2007 08:25
When the RE agent said, prices will always appreciate, or you will have no trouble refinancing, etc. they crossed the line legally. Actually, these lawsuits will further tank the housing market because lenders will be scared out of their minds. That is not a bad thing!!
February 17th, 2007 12:33
Larry H. Parker got me, 2.1 million (cash back at closing)…
February 17th, 2007 14:34
Gary,
We all know it was said millions of times…but it will be very hard to prove. What can be proved is the paperwork that has signatures on it.
If you sign something you don’t understand…then that is on you.
It is one thing to click the box and agree to the ’software agreement’ from microsoft or some other company when you are downloading a new viewer/etc. for your computer. Not reading what you are signing when it comes down to a several hundred thousand dollar purchase that you are going to be responsible for is another thing completely.
The funny thing is, the people that got taken the most by the mortgage brokers…will be the same people taken for the most by the Lawyers. BUT, they will actually be thanking the lawyer when it is all over.
Pandering Lawyers vs. Sleazy Mortgage/RE people…round one!
Stay tuned…
SoCalMtgGuy
February 17th, 2007 16:21
I keep getting these bullsh@t lending offers like:
175000 for 560 a month, 1% rate.
I read some of the fine print and evidently this is a negative amortization loan of some sorts.So the 560/ month doesn’t even cover interest but the difference is conviently added to your pricipal balance. If the loan reaches 115% of original loan amount then other conditions apply.This has got so crazy, I cant believe the scams.The scary thing is people are so financially illeterate that they cannot understand the concept here.
Then there is the interest only loan.Pay interest only for the first 5 years and then the loan amount is amortized over 25 years instead of the original 30, talk about payment shock!
I am glad I am able to see through the bullsh@t but I’m afraid a lot just fall for the low payment offer.This is where our problem lies.
February 17th, 2007 19:15
I work as a manager for one of the big three direct lenders. I have my loan officers turndown refis because of the bad crooked loans that brokers got borrowers into their home purchase. We see alot of mutiple families living in one home paying the mortgage payments. Payoption Arms taking equity out of borrowers homes. its pretty bad . Borrowers are so ignorant when it comes to refinancing. see we are in charge of helping people get out of these bad loans that were done by brokers and by the time we talk to these borrowers they dont believe us or trust us but we know that we can get them a better loan. the borrowers walk away from us then 2-3 months down the road they call back wanting to refinance which is too late because their mortgage have adjusted and are 30 60 or 90 days behind and its too late. its funny when you can help someone one out they dont want it till they realize they are in big trouble.
February 17th, 2007 23:13
If this sounds like you, then give us a call for a free consultation. We might be able to help you get all your money back! So call Uraviktom & Playaviktom…attorneys at law.”
Good! Not counting the misleading ads on websites and even from my own bank (!) I’ve been pitched ARMs masquerading as “fixed” three times in the last 30 days.
The payments are fixed, not the rate. It’s an option ARM and the lenders are intentionally deceiving people.
As much as I detest class action ambulance chasing attorneys, I’d love to see them go after these deceptive lenders and nail them to the wall.
February 17th, 2007 23:18
Did anyone who invested in the tech bubble ever manage to get even ONE CENT back from brokerage firms or the bankrupt companies in which they invested?
Some did, but it’s not about getting money back, it’s about punishing the purveyors of fraud by taking away their livelihoood along with their ill-gotten gains.
February 19th, 2007 11:30
Here’s a thought I had. Correspondent lender or pass through lender originates every crap file imaginable, sells on the secondary market and ends up having to buy quite a bit back. Said lender is maxed out on their warehouse line of credit, can’t buy anything back, and goes out of business. Now the bank that gave the warehouse line to the mortgage company is now on the hook to get rid of these nuclear waste loans. The new mortgage guidelines put out by the OCC and others do not apply to all mortgage companies which is why some of the lenders (like World Savings) were whining over non FDIC lenders being exempt from the new guidelines. I would make the argument that if these non FDIC lenders were using FDIC lenders for their warehouse lines, they too should be abiding by the new guidelines since ultimately the banks would be responsible for these loans if they go bad. Just a thought.
February 20th, 2007 12:11
Better yet - class action lawsuit
February 21st, 2007 07:42
The payments are fixed, not the rate. It’s an option ARM and the lenders are intentionally deceiving people.
As much as I detest class action ambulance chasing attorneys, I’d love to see them go after these deceptive lenders and nail them to the wall.
I agree. If the lender ‘advertises’ one thing (in writing or on a tape recorded phone call) and the ‘paperwork’ says another then they definitely deserve to get sued.
SoCalMtgGuy said:
Don’t get me wrong, there are some people that did get screwed, but many more knew EXACTLY what they were doing. And if they had made those ‘easy riches’ they sure as heck wouldn’t be getting a lawyer to make sure they ‘paid back’ the person who they ‘got rich off of’.
So did the lenders, MBS investors, etc..
It takes ‘Two to Tango’ so there is still plenty of pain to go around on both sides of the real estate market, IMHO.
February 21st, 2007 10:57
bw…
That is my point. Let the ‘economics’ sort this thing out. The lenders and investors who ‘enabled’ this nonsense will get crushed financially and therefore STOP making these loans available.
I just don’t want to see big legislation enacted to ’solve’ this problem.
The lenders investors need to do better risk assessment…and the borrowers need to do some DUE DILLIGENCE themselves and take personal responsibility for being somewhat informed as to what is going on.
SoCalMtgGuy
February 21st, 2007 18:35
More subprime implosion…http://tinyurl.com/yspqpv
February 22nd, 2007 23:09
Dan (from like post 6 or something way up there)
I am with you 100% on this one…I am one of the relatively lazy voters most people rant on, deservedly so in many ways - and I don’t bitch about outcomes I didn’t choose to voice my opinion on. I take part more in local elections than in national ones where many items have a direct consequence on me, and for the most part ignore the daily issues that blast around national level politics for the droning it is.
BUT - if I had to watch stupid (those 10% that were really ‘taken’), greedy (the 80% that started using ‘investment’ instead of home) and criminal (the 10% that organized fraud rings and blew out appraisals) people blow housing out of affordability for myself and my family when I could have used one…while I excercised fiscal discipline and continued renting instead of diving into an exotic loan…AND THEN THEY GET A TAX BAILOUT OF ANY SORT/AMOUNT THAT I NEED TO F$#^&N PAY FOR!?!?!?!?!? OUT OF THE POOL OF $ THAT I’VE BEEN SAVING TO USE FOR MY FAMILY ONCE THIS HISTORIC FIASCO FINALLY DIES!?!?!
I will run through a brick wall to hang the politician that sponsors that. Then leave the country to avoid jail time.
Never will I stand around and take that one quietly. Problem is that with the amount of FB’s and politicians who need votes lining up so nicely in mutual benefit…I can hear the hoofbeats in the distance.
February 26th, 2007 09:08
Realtors have made buying a house a horrible experience. The greed among all the players (reic)is just sickening. Hope the lawyers take out a good chunk out of the realtors mtg brokers builders and related.Then you have lierah calling a bottom every month for last year. Lawyers should go after this org.
February 27th, 2007 13:06
The end of subprime lending is at hand, coupled with the third biggest drop in home prices for the Month of January.
As has been stated on this blog, “subprime” IS the market. Considering 70% or so of potential home buyers fall into the subprime category, this effectively locks them out of the market. Add the increasing mortgage default rates, It is pretty clear we are looking at a 40% value drop in home value over the next 3-5 years, IMO.
WASHINGTON (AP) — Mortgage finance company Freddie Mac (FRE) will no longer buy subprime mortgages that have a “high likelihood” of payment shock and foreclosure, a surprise move that came amid a deteriorating market for subprime loans affected by slumping home prices and rising interest rates, the company announced Tuesday.
The median price of an existing home sold in January dropped to $210,600, a decline of 3.1% from a year ago. It marked the sixth straight month that the median price has been down compared with a year ago. The January decline was the third-biggest drop in history.
Source: http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2007-02-27-existing-jan_x.htm?csp=34
February 27th, 2007 22:12
Where’s everyone been..??? Its been going on for years!
February 28th, 2007 00:33
Dogma,
70% of loans ARE NOT subprime. In fect there is no uniform definition of subprime. Federal Gov believes it is any loan that has a interest rate 3% above the 10 year t-bill.
Industry people have a different definition and say that subprime loans are for people with bad credit (different limits around 620-660ish). So again 70% is way off. More like 20-30%
February 28th, 2007 13:55
Confused,
From what I found, you are correct:
“Lenders came up with a grey area called Alt-A (620-680) which now sits between prime and subprime, and for the most part subprime is considered as anything below 620″
However I was thinking 70% of the “potential” new home buyers fall into this category. This based on indications that 70% of all U.S. adults have sub 660 FICO’s.
And again you are correct, as I found that subprime represents about 24% of all mortgage loans, yet about 80% of all defaults.
What do you think about the bigger question; Will the subprime (and probably a good % of so called quality mortgage loans) defaults drag everyone down with them? If so, how far?
February 28th, 2007 18:14
Yes, NAR is a big part of the problem, in that everyone seems to blindly believe the realtor and that Lereah Does seem to get all the Ink, versus anyone who might tell the Truth….
He Has called the bottom of the real estate market Every Month for Over a Year, saying next week it will boom again. What a chump and his minions - they have Lots of money to settle lawsuits with, unless they spend it all on tv and print ads to convince us all to “buy now, before it goes out of sight again” How can it do that when nobody can buy now?
Doreen (honest SE FL appraiser with no voice)
February 28th, 2007 18:53
Dogma,
Thanks for your reconfiming research.
Bad Subprime Mortgages???? That is step one, the first domino if you will. How many more dominoes are there? How fast will it go? I will give an extremely accurate answer in 24 months. What happens before then? Will it happen fast? Will police every find who killed jonbenet ramsey? Right now no one knows. But Subprime is step one.
February 28th, 2007 21:02
I too am not surprised that this is happening but I am also intrigued as to how this is going to play out. Clearly there has been some predatory lending practices going on in some cases. But you can’t tell me that everyone who signed on to these “funny money” loans is a victim. As several have said, many knew exactly what they were getting into; they just thought they’d get rich doing it.
My question is if the courts find in favor of the debtors (whiners or crybabies may be better monikers!), what does this do to contract law? If you sign a contract (a mortgage is a contract) and down the road don’t like the terms, can you simply declare that you didn’t really understand what you signed and therefore you should be released from your obligations? I am interested to hear from any attorneys on the blog about this.
February 28th, 2007 21:37
Hey Socal:
The whole subprime market is crumbling.
Got any new insight to this blowup?
You called it long, long ago. Well it is now happening.
Keep us posted.
March 1st, 2007 14:27
If a would-be screen writer walked into a Hollywood Studio with the following non-fiction screenplay synopsis, s/he would be tossed out as being incredible and ridiculous…Yet this is true:
NEW YORK (Fortune) — When a certain $126,000 subprime loan on a $696,000 house on the West Coast failed to produce a single mortgage payment, alarm bells went off at Clayton Holdings, a company that monitors credit risk.
Closer scrutiny revealed other red flags. The borrower’s previous rent payment had been $1,000, compared to the $4,482 she was supposed to be shelling out for both the primary loan and the $126,000 piggyback. And her stated income was $84,000 even though she was an hourly worker at Target.
read the whole story here:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/28/magazines/fortune/subprime.fortune/index.htm?cnn=yes
March 2nd, 2007 15:00
SoCal,
Your missing the fun this week.
The Dow suffers a 4% drop in one week, the worst week in four years. New Century Financial is off 7.5% today and NovaStar is off 11%+. This all started a few years ago but the spark that set off this explosion is the crashing of the subprime market. China and the Asian markets spill rhetoric that they will tighten credit standards and we have a rush to the exits. Not only that, but U.S. markets were in a massive sell off mode. Gold is down. Energy is down. Stocks are down. This was a minor panic.
We aren’t even at the end of Q1 and we still have nearly $1 trillion in loans resetting this year, many in the subprime market. Not only that but housing is in the worst shape in 13 years. What is going to happen this summer when folks try to unload their properties in a market saturated with homes? Not only that, there are many reports highlighting the fact that even though Americans own homes at the highest percentage, their equity to loan ratios are at all time lows. Not only that, savings is at an all time low as well.
Arizona is already at the precipice of going down in flames; the bastion of hope is this summer. Hate to say it but it won’t happen. Record inventory was reached last year at 54,500+ and we’re already near 53,600 in March.
It’ll be an interesting year that’s for sure. Take a look at other subprime lenders and try to short a few of these. Pull up their financial sheets and invest wisely.
Dr. Housing Bubble
http://drhousingbubble.blogspot.com
March 4th, 2007 05:41
Fremont’s subprime operation just went poof. Shut down by the FDIC. If they think the loans originated in the past year are having problems, what happens with the 2 and 3 year ARM’s that haven’t reset? I have already come accross borrowers who have these and can’t refi because their credit scores didn’t recover as anticipated. These borrowers are now looking at double digit interest rates. If they had a hard time making the payment at 7-8% how can they handle 10-11%? Add in to the mix 100% (or more if you count inflated appraisals) CLTV’s, interest only payments, option ARM’s that haven’t hit their resets, and you haven’t even scratched the surface on the problems that lie ahead. If you have honest appraisals, you can’t refinance to delay the inevitable. The piper wants paid, now.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-loans3mar03,1,3317167,full.story?coll=la-headlines-business
March 4th, 2007 20:23
The Asian stock markets are continuing to sell off today. Monday morning is bound to be very ‘interesting’ for the US stock markets as well.
March 7th, 2007 06:45
Off-Topic but Must get this to SoCalAppraiser and OCAppraiser, ASAP!! Others may be interested too!!
Posted by: “Steve Smith” srsrea@yahoo.com
Mon Mar 5, 2007 11:49 am (PST)
I just got off the phone with a lawyer involved in a class action suit that involves several AMC’s owned by big lenders.
There is a RESPA issue of marking up vendor services. He is looking for explicit examples of this, from the appraiesrs themselves. And, he is looking for those willing to testify.
Steven R. Smith, MSREA, MAI, SRA
Smith Realty Advisors
1881 Commercenter East
Suite 200
San Bernardino, CA 92408
http://smithrealtyadvisors.biz/html
Real Estate Appraisals, Consulting, Expert Testimony, Forensic Reviews, Fraud Research and Analysis, Litigation Support, Fraud Training through the Association of Real Estate Professionals, the Appraisal Insitute www.appraisalinstitute.org
909-798-8855, fax: 909-798-0139
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:03 PM
To: MobileAppraiserGroup@yahoogroups.com
RE: [MobileAppraiserGroup] Off Topic: Class Action Suit against AMC’s
Importance: High
DO YOU MEAN $45.00 FOR A FINAL TO THE APPRAISER AND $150.00 FROM THE HOMEOWNER? OR $550.00 FOR A MULTI FAMILY AND THE SPLIT TO THE APPRAISER IS $300.00? THAT SORT OF THING?
John McCarty
Homestead Appraisal Services
9 Lenape Trail
Chatham, NJ 07928
Phone 973 635 3327
Fax 973 828 0208
Posted by: “Roger” apex@apexappraisals.com rw779801
Mon Mar 5, 2007 1:06 pm (PST)
John,
I don t think that is what is being referenced here. More than likely someone like Landsafe collects $350 and charges customer $500. Countrywide makes $150 for getting their Own subsidiary to farm it out to the fast/cheap/hit the number guys. However it is the idea just a technicality. And really what is different about that?
Countrywide farms it out to Landsafe and Landsafe to an appraiser.. looks like business to me. A regulation that separates the loan officer from a needed value which in all truthfulness just adds red tape and costs to the homeowner because too many appraisers are going to work for nothing and do whatever it takes to Value it for the loan. All while thinking they are doing a good deed. We do a lot of Landsafe work for our standard fee not theirs. (Washington State – This does NOT happen in more appraiser-saturated markets like Florida’s major met areas - we’re Squeezed for valule & fees)
I see it all the same, it is just the process of the charge. I have yet to know of a report from Landsafe as an example where the home owner is upset with the fee charged it s always a value or silly item like bedrooms which we don t adjust for separately anyway. AND when discussion goes beyond the bedrooms it always comes to the final concluded value was not perceived as the homeowner expected.
I just don t see where anything can be done until the big money gets involved. If those making A LOT more $ s on these deals than the appraisers don t care, then I see no option for the appraiser than to just do their portion correctly. Until regulators have the money to actually do something to the appraisers, it will not change no matter how much noise is made. I see appraisers who have been taken off FHA for notorious violations, have books of violations listed on them with the state and yet they are still practicing after ten years of these actions!! One review of fraud many years ago was turned into the state and the Lender, and the Lender did the loan anyway!! This fight is for those who have not lost their passion about it yet. And that s not me anymore.
Good luck Steve,
Roger Wells
L.A. D.A. Appraisal Fraud presentation Wednesday Posted by: “Steve Smith” srsrea@yahoo.com srsrea
Mon Mar 5, 2007 12:22 pm (PST)
I just got off the phone with the DA. She wants me to present on Appraisal Fraud issues and invited me to bring appraisers to the meeting too. It will be at 10:30 at 201 N. Figueroa, Suite 1600 in Los Angeles. We will take the train, ’cause parking is expensive and they do not validate. Besides, it is faster, except for th last half mile which is a walk up hill.
It turns out that I will be the program, not a part of one. She asked for tips on how to spot an appraisal fraud by reading the report, the major software vendors and identity theft issues.
I am open to suggestions from you guys on what to tell the investigators and prosecutors..
Anyone who wants to join us is welcome. I will leave the local station at 8:00 to allow enough time to meet and greet before the meeting.
This post made by Doreen Campbell, FL appraiser & fraud fighter - OC, SoCal, Any CA Appraisers - there’s some help on the way -
Keep in touch, DoreenC@CampbellAppraisal.com - 954-483-7300
Anyone heard from SoCalMtgGuy lately?
March 8th, 2007 17:51
I like the idea of attorneys suing mortgage brokerages. I especially like the part where the mortgage brokerage files BK and the attorney and his class action suit clients are left pissing in the wind. As is the case with consumer BK, commercial BK leaves the claimants holding the bag. Good luck finding deep pockets on this one. They’ll have to go all the way to the Feds.
March 9th, 2007 07:52
Socal, I have to disagree with you in post 13. It is exactly the same, except for the dollar amounts involved. IANAL*, but the legal standard for the terms of a contract of adhesion to be unenforceable is “unconsscionable,” not “I bother to read it.” It’s sort of like the difference between rape and “I shouldn’t have slept with that guy last night.” I don’t think that the means of acknowleging assent to the contract, clickwrap or physical signature is a distinction in enforceability, even if there might be an evidentary distinction.
*usual disclaimer, I’m not a lawyer, free legal advice is overpriced etc etc.
March 9th, 2007 09:32
Jim A.
I agree that it is the same…but the ‘contract’ on a free software download probably doesn’t warrent the time needed to read the disclaimer, BUT on a several hundred thousand dollar purchase, it most certainly does.
that is my only point. Risk/reward kind of thing…
SoCalMtgGuy
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